You have to teach yourself. You can, if you want to support your child and help them. Do you think there's an anxiety from parents that then transfers to the kids? 100%. I think the biggest takeaway that I've realised one personally, and secondly, speaking to hundreds of parents, is the later you leave things, the more stressful it is for everybody.

So welcome back to another episode of the Future Doc podcast, where we talk about people from all different walks of medicine, all the way from first time applicants, all the way up to medical professors. But today I thought we'd do a slightly different episode where we talk to a parent on how they can support their child, get with their application, how they can help them get in, and what they can do and avoid to make that process as smooth as possible. So today we have with us Sharon, who had her child go through the Future Doc process and actually get into medicine twice, which we'll talk about later.

But also she ended up coming to do some work for us as the one of the admissions teams. So he's a great person to talk to as she has not only helped her child do the same process twice, but has seen many, many parents do it of all different types of way that they're trying to do it some good, some bad, and can offer much comment on that. So Sharon, tell us a little bit about yourself. Thank you ash. It's great to be here with you today and looking forward to having this conversation that will hopefully be helpful to other parents as well.

Um, so basically, as you mentioned, I am a parent. I also work in education. So it's been quite interesting to see, um, this whole medical application process and learn from it. And actually great to work with the team at Future Doc to kind of get the best out of it. Great.

So let's let's start with the the good, the bad and the ugly that you've seen. So you've obviously helped a lot of parents now and spoke to many families. What do you think that parents do when they're supporting their child going through medical school applications? What do they do well, and what do some parents do, maybe even with good intentions, that maybe get in the way a little bit? So I think being a parent myself, obviously it always comes from a place of good intent and love.

So I think what they do well is they are trying to be supportive and obviously helping their child achieve their dreams. What I've seen actually, from my own experience, but also talking to hundreds of parents now over a couple of years, is that sometimes there's an anxiety there because the parents haven't actually done the UCAT, for example, themselves. So it's the fear of the unknown. Um, and they're trying to support or coach and take on a role effectively that they may not know much about. So I think the anxiety is something that probably isn't as helpful.

But there's ways to be planned that, you know, we've helped lots of parents with that have gone on to be really fruitful for lots of students. Do you think there's an anxiety from parents that then transfers to the kids 100%? Um, a couple of, um, in a couple of ways. So one is just the general anxiety of not knowing and how to get through this process. And the second is a lot of parents sometimes are comparing against other students and other children or people they know.

So which isn't always fair because all students have different profiles. So I think there's something about knowing what your child is going to be good at and what their profile is to be tactical about that, but also getting some support basically for things that you don't know about. Hmm. Absolutely. So I guess, like you say, it's different for each person and maybe we can touch on how that can vary.

But fundamentally, if a parent wants to put themselves in a position to be most useful to their child whilst they're going through this process, what would you say they should do or clue themselves upon? I mean, I think I've gone through this myself. So the first thing is just to get a better understanding of the process. And by that I mean from as early as year 11, potentially looking at when you're going to get the work experience, understanding actually what the UCAT is, it's not something that you've done before, it's not something that your child has done before. And it's a fairly different kind of exam.

I think from a parent's perspective, they should be looking to be quite logistical in terms of protecting the summer before students were actually sitting in the UCAT. So carving out that space, that time and really making a supportive and positive environment at home because it is quite, um, an anxious time for parents and students, I think. Absolutely. And I think, I mean, it goes without saying, but I think people often underestimate how much work is required and how much time you should allow. Definitely.

And, you know, people come at it the summer before, but actually you really need to be allowing a year or the way I describe it is really it's a two year process from starting the preparation to starting medical school. So, you know, if you start medical school in September of a certain year, you'll submit your application the September before. And really, you want to be at least thinking about it and starting to make your first bits of duty, first bits of research, or make your first preparations really the September before that and making it, you know, that two year timeline. Really? Definitely.

I mean, I totally agree, there are so many parents that I've spoken to that when it comes to actually the year 12 summer, they're trying to chase another work experience that could be a bit more prestigious or some kind of lab research or something, but that is a critical time for the UCAT. um, it's definitely not something that you can just get away with. You know, doing a few weeks work. So protecting that whole summer period for UCAT prep is really a non-negotiable. And as you're saying, um, you know, doing the work experience, etcetera from the beginning of year 12 or potentially even the summer of year 11 just alleviates that kind of stress and anxiety you will feel later on down the line.

Yeah, and actually, in a previous episode, we were talking to Samuel, who went into to got into Oxford Medical School and he was saying how, you know, you need time for your experience to accumulate and consolidate in your head and and for the reflections on those things to mature. So actually having those towards the start rather than because you're essentially you're saying clear the space for summer to, to just go all in on the I'd say, you know, the, the fundamentals of the application, write the exams and, and all of that sort of stuff. Um, and actually getting the experience, which is probably the more important thing, is actually good to do earlier on in front load, because those things almost proliferate, because some experiences lead to other things.

Um, they also lead to you having a better understanding of the things that you've gone and read in that way. It multiplies, really, and that wealth of experience matures. As I was saying in that episode, to, um, to really help you become a lot more, I've got no better term for it than the real deal. Really, rather than just somebody who's done a bit of cramming at the last minute? Absolutely.

I think with the work experience, it's about, look, you've got 16, 17, 18 year olds there going into a clinical environment. It's all new that they're all day. They're going home at the end of the day, tired doing this for a week and then they may go back to school. So details fade. So by the time you actually need those for your personal statement, for your interviews, their, you know, memories which were quite distant.

So I think parents who are listening can really be supportive by speaking to their children to not just say, how did it go? But what did you learn? What did you see? Like, has that changed your perspective? What do you think you might do differently?

Because having good work experience is one thing, but if you can't speak about it, um, that's where the medical interviewers will pick up on fairly quickly. So you need to really be able to reflect in terms of what you've learned and what you might think. And actually, the really sophisticated students will then also be watching the news and actually starting to connect themes about patient safety or what's going on in the NHS. And I think it's this that really conveys passion for the subject and the whole industry. Um, yeah, absolutely.

To the interviews. And what we do at Future Doc is we encourage students to keep a log, because actually one of the things, I guess one of the mistakes that parents make or students make generally is thinking that you need fancy work experience, you need really prestigious placements and to be with prolific professors and whatnot. But actually it's what you get out of it, and it's how you can extract the useful stuff out of not necessarily the mundane, but, you know, the day to day sort of, um, uh, medical, you know, life on the ward, for example. And that's the main thing. You can have somebody, you know, just as a thought experiment.

I usually say you can have somebody with the most elaborate fancy work experience and someone who's just done the most basic thing. But if that person can extract the important information, extract the learnings, the reflections, understand what the career involves based off that that person will do much better than someone who's just reading off a list. And that's an important thing for people to understand 100%. I mean, I definitely say I was guilty of this myself when my daughter got her work experience in year ten. It was a research project at guy's, and she was really happy.

And then she went on to get work experience at UCL, and I was really pleased. And actually it took us to go down the route to get to the personal statement and to get to the interview to realise they're not going to ask you, where did you go? Um, they're interested in what you picked up, what you learned. So the methodology in terms of reflection at Future Doc is super important for them to be able to discuss these experiences effectively and really with their own voice and their own learning. And so I completely agree.

If you've got a prestigious name but you can't talk to as opposed to if you've just been to a local care home and you've realised that you know how somebody was becoming distressed and how the team was supporting them in an empathetic way, and how you realise the importance of communication, those kind of ideas are going to come out really well at interview and show that, you know, the kind of you're able to bring your experience to life. Hmm. And I think on the theme of work experience, because it's a very common thing that parents ask about, and a lot of the time they almost feel the pressure to leverage some sort of network or find someone that they know or, um, yeah, a friend of a friend, family, friend, whatever to get that work experience.

Do you have any words of encouragement or, uh, anything to say to people who think that that's the only route or whether they can help support their child, get work experience a different way, and arguably there are better ways to do it. So I think if you have the connections, you will use them. If you don't have the connections, I definitely don't think that's the end of the road. Um, our own daughter was literally got most of her work experiences just by going to school, and when there were medical talks, she would reach out to the people that were giving those talks, and sometimes she wouldn't hear back for months.

But it was that persistence in terms of every couple of months she would reach out to them again. So they were called contacts. But eventually some of them came back and said, oh, this is coming up. We thought of you. So I think there are different ways to go around of leveraging the people that you can have connections with, and writing thoughtful emails of what your interest is, is to a specialist in some area, and really thinking out of the box in which other students may not.

So I agree with you. I think there's it doesn't have to be connections. And actually a lot of the people we speak to at Future Doc not, you know, a lot of their parents aren't medical and they're not dentists and they don't have those connections. And so that's why the program is actually really helpful to show you the ideas that you can explore, to kind of leverage and get those experiences on your CV. Yeah.

And I think what a lot of parents don't realise is that it's almost purposefully difficult for the medical schools kind of want it to be a little bit difficult, and they don't want people to have it handed to them or to have it pay for them. Parents want, understandably, it's a box that they want to take, and they want to have it sorted and help them sort it. But actually what they don't realise is that this is a filter in itself. It takes a lot of work, a lot of persistence, a certain level of assertiveness to keep asking and keep trying it. And that's those are the skills that they want to see students develop on their route to, you know, maturing and developing the skills that would make a good doctor.

So it's almost like they need to go through that process to demonstrate to themselves their own commitment and actually have and demonstrate to the universities the persistence to be willing to try maybe 50 times before they actually get somebody say yes. Definitely completely agree. Because many times when I speak to parents, they say things like, well, you know, our child's got a lot of work to do. So I'm going to be looking for the work experiences and we're going to be reaching out to people. And it's a matter of delicately telling parents.

As a parent myself who's been through this, that actually, yes, it is difficult. It is tough, but all the students are going through the same thing. And actually, this is designed in this way, as you've just said, to make sure we're getting the right people onto the courses to study medicine and dentistry, and that you have those traits that are going to enable you to do well as you go further down that journey. So I 100% agree with you. Um, so, I mean, we've touched on some anxieties there of getting that sorted, but generally, you know, the whole application process, and rightly so, is an anxious process for parents and students because of the nature of it being so competitive.

So what did you do to alleviate some of the worry or the anxiety that you or or your child might have had when you were applying? Well, you were collectively applying. Yeah, sure. Um, so look, the first thing is, um, we tried to find out what we could. Um, we very quickly realised we're not experts.

We have our day job. And so we basically planned early. So we were helping her plan from actually year 11 to C, because there was a little bit of concern. Would she get the work experience, would she be able to get some research, etc.. So we thought by planning early that would be helpful.

And that's how we actually came across Future Doc. Um, but I think there's a couple of things. One is be early, be supportive, understand what the battleground is that you know, that you're stepping into, but also get some support. There are people that do this day in, day out and are supporting people with applications in various ways, and they are the experts they're doing this year in, year out. So when you feel that you don't have the knowledge, leverage it and get that support and get it early rather than waiting till June, July, August when you're then competing with all the other late comers to also get the support.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the journey can obviously be elevated in its quality, but I think one of the real distinctive factors between people who come early and people who don't is the level of stress. And that does affect performance as well, because obviously the more relaxed people can be, the better they will approach it and the better they will perform. Um, but yeah, I think if you can just it doesn't have to be so painful. It really doesn't.

And, you know, I, I was surprised when I first started at Future Doc, I couldn't believe that people were saying this at the end, that they actually kind of enjoyed the application process because I certainly didn't enjoy it. But I did give myself time and I had it a lot. It was a lot. It was significantly less stressful than some of my contemporaries, however. Um, yeah.

I didn't appreciate that people can enjoy that whole process because it is a journey of growth for people, especially at that age. Learning how to interview well, speak well, and present ideas and formulate thoughts in front of people. I was thinking out loud. These are skills that you don't tend to get put. They don't get put on trial at that stage of your life and being able to navigate that well.

And I think, I think medical school generally gives you some life skills that are unparalleled by many by any other, um, pursuits. And I think going through the application process also has flavours of that that are really useful for people's development at that stage of life. Definitely. I think from a parents perspective, it's quite a good idea to sit down with your child and just have an honest conversation in terms of look. Where are you at?

How much work experience do you have? See if there are gaps. If there are gaps. Fine. Get some work experience.

But actually if they've got some good work experiences they can talk to. I think there's also a skill in realising enough's enough and actually now focus on the UCAT. And again, we've had students come to us who initially were achieving quite low deciles and then over the week with sustained, you know, coaching and practice, they've actually gone to achieve really high deciles. So it just reinforces the idea that start earlier to alleviate the pressure because you're also trying to get your predictions. You've also got to write your personal statement and all the other things.

So I think it is very helpful to be a little bit more organised for this application. Yeah. So I mean let's talk about some of this. We've already touched on a few of the mistakes that parents might make or parents. You know, like I say, the collective unit that's applying.

Um, so we talked about not allowing enough time for the UCAT. You hear people who do did really well in the UCAT saying that we should have allowed more time. Um, as well as the people, obviously, who regrettably didn't do as well. We talked about getting the work experience and getting the preparation in early and not focusing too, focusing at it at the right on it at the right time, rather than when you should be focusing on other things. What about some of the mistakes?

Say, let's say university choices? Do you see any mistakes that parents make there? I think this is a really delicate conversation because at the outset, um, it's almost a battle between sensibility and sentiment, like you're feeling towards something rather than being sensible about actually, what is your child's profile. So I guess what I'm trying to say is generally, lots of parents want to go for a prestigious, well known, impressive institutions. Um, but actually, you've got to be tactical here.

You've got to look at the profile and see how well has your child done in their GCSEs. What are their A-level predictions? Um, how well are they going to get on in the UCAT? And actually, how confident are they at interviewing a lot of universities. Uh, you know look at the UCAT and that's a really strong determinant.

If they're going to ask you to come for interview. And some of them are more holistic. So particularly if you do achieve a lower UCAT score or a lower decile, I think you've then got to be more tactical in where you're applying. So I think it would be helpful if parents could, I guess, somehow realise that actually the goal is the offer and not the institution. So if you have that in mind from the beginning, obviously you want to go and be ambitious, but it's about and this is what we do in Future Doc as well.

It's about choosing tactically to making sure you're maximising the chance of getting in. So I think it's really about all of those things that I mentioned in terms of sit down and have a honest conversation, take stock and then apply. Because we always see the people that apply tactically, always get the most offers. Hmm, absolutely. And I think.

How did you find that when you were applying? Um, so mine was a little bit different in that. So I my story was that I didn't realise I wanted to study medicine until I started working in hospital, and I really enjoyed the environment. And I got my GCSEs that summer. I'd already chosen what A-levels I was going to do, and I got better GCSEs than I expected was in the hospital environment.

It was a possibility and it was something that I enjoyed speaking to patients and helping them. So I was like, okay, maybe this is something I should explore. And it more unfolded as I was exploring it so I was limited to. So I had to go via the foundation route, which actually, um, was more competitive because it's actually more fewer, fewer places and more applicants per place. Um, but yes, I was limited to the universities that offered it.

Um, however, I think one of the things that I always say to our students at Future Doc and is is so much more important than people realise is the place you go, as in not ignoring the university, the physical city town where you go is a lot more important than you realise. Because yes, I mean theoretically you spend 40 hours a week at medical school, you don't spend. It's not, it's not quite like a full time job, but, um, you'll spend a lot more time living in that place. So it has to be somewhere that you enjoy. And, um, again, that episode that we talked to Samuel about, Oxford, he rightly so, said it's a decision of the heart more than the head.

Sometimes I think it's true. I think that you can obviously, you need to be tactical about whether you're going to get in. But once you've actually got those offers and you're choosing between where you're going to make your final decision, I think It's, um, it is important to bear in mind that you're not just studying at the university. You're living there as well. Absolutely.

And there was something else I was going to say with regards to, uh, choosing universities. Oh, yeah, that was it. So I think the cliche saying is everyone comes out with the same medical degree, and that is true, and I think but to offer some maybe words of comfort to, to parents and maybe take the pressure off a little bit is some of the best doctors I've worked with have come from the, you know, not so competitive medical schools and actually maybe equally so if this is both a, uh, I guess it will take the pressure, maybe a bit of a consolation, but also a word of warning to not get too comfortable if you are in the prestigious universities.

How are you doing? Your medical career is really going to depend on what you do after you graduate, how well you keep up those standards of educating yourself. Making sure you're up to date. How, um, how much you put into it. Really.

And, uh, you can take your career where you want it to. Um, but you have to be diligent about that. So it's not a case of just collecting the degree and everything. You know, it's taken care of from there. It's actually really after you graduate, that, uh, where your career goes will depend on really the work that you do then.

So that's both, um, a reassurance and a kind of wake up call to say, like, getting in is the hard part. The bottleneck is getting into medical school, which is why you should be happy that you got a place anywhere. But actually, you know, where you take that career is is not done once you get that A-level grade to say that you've made it and that offer accepted. So definitely, um, I was talking to a neurosurgeon the other day and actually he was saying to me he had a junior doctors come in and he was saying a certain percentage of them weren't the best with their bedside manner.

So he said some of them were actually really academic, but they didn't have that bedside manner. And that's something that they're going to be, you know, working with them on. So I think what you're saying, in terms of upskilling yourself, training yourself, and having a holistic, well-rounded approach is going to be really important. Yeah. For everyone applying, it's always a bit of a roller coaster.

And obviously I know firsthand. In your case, there were many ups and downs. There was, you know, the UCAT, three UCATs, which I think everybody has, you know, success of it going okay, but maybe disappointment. There was getting offers or interview offers at certain places, but universities that we really had our heart set on, we didn't get offers for then, so took me through the whole journey and what that was like to support being the, you know, support, uh, support animal for that. In that, um, it's definitely a roller coaster.

And there's a lot of emotions at various points. So in terms of, uh, and, you know, every, every student is going to have their own journey, depending on what work experience they get, what UCAT score they get, if they get the interviews, etc.. But I think the the one thing that I've seen a lot of in terms of talking to parents is sometimes students don't get their first choice. Um, and actually so when you are picking that second choice or your insurance, make sure that as you said before, you do like that city and you do want to go to that place because it could be a reality that you are going there.

And I feel that, um, most of the students going to medic there are medicine. They're obviously very bright, they're very ambitious. And in the back of their mind, they feel they're going to make the first choice. So I think definitely be a little bit more open minded in terms of if you get that second choice, it is somewhere that you love and you'll be happy to go to. I think for us, the main rollercoaster came towards a results day because it was pretty okay all the way through in terms of being organised had helped.

But on results day when our daughter missed the grade, it was just a complete shock. So in hindsight now, perhaps we should have been a little bit more prepared in terms of actually this could be the case, but we just didn't see it at all and she seemed pretty confident. Um, so I think Samuel also spoke to this, but on the day it was really one, there was shock. And secondly, there was no idea in terms of what would be the plan. So would it be biomedical or a different degree?

Would it be take a gap year? Would it be just do something different? There had been no thought given to that at all. And so maybe it could be a conversation for parents to have with their children that just in case it didn't work out, what would you do? Like where do you think you might lean towards?

Because it's good to have those conversations when there's no emotion, basically, rather than on the day when you're then trying to fumble through, clearing, etc.. I think the biggest takeaway that I've realised one personally, and secondly, speaking to hundreds of parents, is to realise that this isn't a one, a single journey, that you're going to get to that end point and it's going to work out. It could happen and it does happen for lots of students, but actually it also doesn't happen the way it's supposed to for a lot of students as well. It doesn't mean they don't get there. And as you said, it doesn't mean they're not going to be superb doctors, but it could be that you end up resetting.

It could be you end up getting a remark. It could be you take the gap year, or you go and do another degree and you get in via the grad route. And I think to take stock of that and realise this is a journey that if you really want that goal, just have that plan B, actually, if I don't quite make it the first time, what am I going to do? Where do I think I'd like to go with it? I think it would be quite useful to have some kind of plan as a family about that before results day.

Okay, so talk me through it. So, so when that result came in and it wasn't what you were hoping for. It meant that medicine was off the off the table, at least for that year. How did you offer support as a parent, and what would you advise to parents who were in a similar situation? So I think what we did was we didn't try to pressure her to do another degree or to do the research.

We wanted her to make her own decision. In hindsight, I think she was so overwhelmed with the fact that it hadn't gone how she was expecting that she wasn't in the right space to make that decision. Which goes back to my point. And I have this conversation before. Um, to be supportive.

What we did was we tried to work to the timescales we had. So during those next few days, the only thing you can do is actually call around and get the offers. Once you have the offers, you have a couple of days to think about whether you want that. So it's. Clearing offers.

The clearing offers. Yeah. So all hands on deck to get the clearing offers. Um, and then once you have those then we were trying to be supportive, but for us it was pretty simple. She was dead set that she wanted to reset, and she could do that and she would get the grades.

And so she wanted to go. And so there was no conversation in our house. But I think from now speaking to other parents, it's quite useful not to force children or your child to go into a degree that perhaps they don't love, perhaps at a university or a city that they're not fond of. It's still going to be three years of their life. And actually, perhaps just resetting could be a better option.

So try just to be supportive because there's disappointment all around. You're all going for something. And I think just trying to keep a positive as much as you can, and time sorts everything out in the way that it's supposed to be. Hmm. Absolutely.

And I guess it's a tough decision to make because, I mean, let's play it out. What options did you have you had clearing? Maybe not always necessarily for everybody. You have take a biomed type degree. So three years in, go back as grad, you have, um, take a year out and reapply.

And then I guess some people, it's that's it. Medicine's not for me. So I guess those are probably the four things that are on the cards at that point. So how how did tell me which route you ended up going down and why and how you navigated that process. So we did go through.

We did try and attempt to look through clearing. In hindsight, we should have done that before. So we should have looked at actually which degrees you can do that allow you if you want to go into biomed because there's in clearing, there's not that many options there. There's very few options to get into medicine. The other mistake we made was because of the shock.

We didn't go. We didn't activate clearing straightaway. So we kind of, um, fumbled around for an hour or so getting to grips with what's happened. And actually, the best proactive thing you can do at that time is park your emotion and actually just get on the phones and see if there are any medicine places or any other places. So I think clearing was something we weren't ready for.

We barely knew how to go through the process, so when she went the second time, we were a lot more clued up on that. Um, going to another degree. There's nothing really to say about that, but you're fourth. The fourth thing you mentioned is it's the end of the road. I still don't believe it's the end of the road, because even now there's many grads that come to Future Doc that have been working for two years, three years, five years, seven years.

And actually they always had their heart set on doing medicine and they come back to it at some point in, you know, later on down the line. It's even been up to ten and 12 years. So the one thing I would say is those people, they often say, I wish I'd done it before and they think nobody else is doing that. 50% of our cohort is actually grads. So I think it's worth knowing you're not alone just because you may go into another job.

Try. If you don't like it, you can always try again and go through the grad route. And I think it's good to let more people be aware of that because many grads come and they said, I didn't even realise it was an option. Yeah, I think it's a very pressurised situation to be in because at that age, you know, a year or three years, whatever it is, it feels like a very long time and it feels like wasting a year. Um, is is like one of the worst things that you can do.

And actually there are so many things that you can do with that. And I think the reality, the only reality I would say about grad is that it is more competitive. Um, it's harder to get in that route. People think, oh, that it'll be easier that way. It's not.

However, um, you know, taking a year out and just focusing on the application, uh, if you kind of look at it from a long term perspective, it's actually if that second time is successful, actually a shorter period of time overall, and ultimately it's avoiding a detour to get where you ultimately want to be. And yes, you can gain some skills by doing another degree. So I'm not saying it's not an option, but I think sometimes people are so scared to just take another year just to actually go again at the thing that they want, that they do take unnecessary detours sometimes. And when you add the fees to that and everything else, it isn't a, you know, a no brainer, so to speak.

But, um, yeah, I think people worry about these things sometimes. We're actually there are lots of benefits to just going again. And, and also when people go and uh, come after years after, I think that's the time when I actually, I think that our support is probably just like, you know, talk about us for a moment. And but I think that's when our support is, is really good as well because it forces people to do it. Um, you know, recently I've been trying to do new hobbies and skills, and I found it The best way to do it is to just book myself on a course or do something like that.

And it then just forces me to do it. And if I'm not very good in the first few days, and normally if I was doing it by myself, I'd maybe just not, I'd maybe stop. It forces me to keep going until I hit a certain threshold. And I think the problem I see with those guys who have left it, you know, five years plus, is that they'll kind of go, oh, well, I'll just do it next year. This isn't a good time.

I'll do it next year. And before they know it, it's like four years later and they've still not done it. And that's when I, I it's the only time where I really say to them like, come and join us because we'll, we'll almost, we'll drag you through this process to make sure that you get that if it's really what you want. Definitely. And a lot of grants do say there isn't much support for grads out there either.

So when they do come on the program, they're not in that education environment anymore. So they're not getting the support that you would at underground. Um, and so it's really good for them to have somebody that they can be accountable to and that can support them through the process. So I definitely agree on that point for sure. So you've kind of drawn the distinction between being the supportive parent and really trying to be the expert.

That will be unqualified. What do you think the line is between those sorts of things in terms of, say, getting help with personal statements and trying to edit it yourself and those sorts of, you know, the blurred lines between the two. Um, I think, honestly, I think a parent will intuitively know they may realise they're trying to support their child, but how they'll know is, for example, sometimes when I'm having conversations with parents and students, I'm asking the student a question and the parent will keep answering. Or, um, the parent will proudly say, oh, our child's shadowed a really impressive surgeon. And I'll say to the student, oh, well, tell me a little bit about that.

And actually, they can only talk about it really superficially. So essentially what I'm saying is when the parents become too involved, it's sometimes to the detriment that the child is not able to develop their own voice in terms of this is my experience, this is what I've learned. And they're basically have somebody else, you know, do all that for them. Ultimately, when you get to the interview and you then go into medical school, um, you will have to do that for yourself. So I think there's something there in terms of realising who actually wants this, because it's a long journey and you have to be really committed.

So I think you have to 100% know that your child wants that. And it's not a kind of a family decision that you all want your child to do, if that makes sense. Mhm. So where is that line then between, you know we see it a fair bit sometimes people who apply to the program and we kind of say I don't think this is for you because we can see that it's not the child that wants it, it's the parents that are really pushing it on them. What would you say to parents who maybe who are on?

Or maybe they want it more than the child wants it? It's not necessarily that if they want it more than the child, that it's not the right career for them, but when it's really them trying to push that boulder uphill. Well, I had one particular conversation with a parent who was quite firm to say that they didn't. They weren't keen for anybody in the team to talk the child out of doing medicine. And the child wanted to do medicine, and that's what the goal was.

And it was about having a delicate conversation to say, if the child does want to do medicine, they won't be talked out of it. They'll know themselves and it will come from their heart and they'll know that's what they want to do. So I think there's one thing sometimes parents don't realise, but when I guess it's not easy for me to say because I see it so many times. And actually when it's yourself, you have to have that self-awareness. But I think what I can say as a parent is, you know, when your child will just have the initiative to get up and do something because they like it, they want it and they want to achieve it.

And when you have to constantly tell them, have you done this? Have you done this, have you done this? And I think if you see yourself as a parent, having to do that all the time about a medical application, there could be something there in terms of having a conversation to make sure, is this really what you want? Because this is just the start. Um, and so you've got to if you can't pedal the journey that you need to get through here, it might be quite tricky if you actually end up in medical or dental school.

That's my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. It kind of reminds me, when you go through the process and even through medical school as well, there is a little bit reminiscent to a very small degree compared to Navy Seals training that reminds me where they're essentially they put people through Hell Week, as they call it, and just constantly trying to convince them to quit because they want to see the people who actually have the, the, you know, the strong head to to say, actually, no, I don't want to quit and I can't be convinced otherwise. It's kind of almost a trial by fire sort of thing. Definitely.

I think you've got to basically just be supportive, be realistic and get help. Get help from the experts in areas that you think that your child might may be weak if they're absolutely amazing at that, you can't great. Just give them the space. But if you feel like they're struggling, um, they might need some support, then get that and get it in an organised way. The later you leave things, the more stressful it is for everybody.

That's what I would say, definitely from my personal experience. So what would you say the difference is between having a coach and not, and how did it feel in the household once you know the your daughter was under the wing of somebody? I think the difference between having a coach is because they've done this before, they know how to approach it. So if you do this yourself, you have to teach yourself You can, if you want to support your child and help them. Um, if you have a coach, for example, our coach is their data driven, so they understand the data that they're looking for in the scores and how they can use that data to strategically help, really kind of refocus the student as to where they should spend their time, because they don't have all the time in the world.

So knowing those kind of tips and the kind of strategies to deal with the different sections, because you've done that for years before, I think is super helpful. Um, I think it definitely alleviated, um, anxiety in the house because we felt like there was somebody who would support her, somebody she was also accountable to, somebody she could ask, and actually it wasn't us. So if we got it wrong, it wasn't going to be a big deal. So I think having somebody there definitely makes allowed us to step back and actually just be more supportive and be logistical in terms of clearing the space and making sure the environment was calm.

Um, you know, when she was ramping up to the final parts of the UCAT and just, um, kind of just giving that reinforcement, positive reinforcement at home. Really? Um, absolutely. I think the accountability piece is massive as well. Like, a lot of the time, you just have to sometimes you just need to sit down and get get your head in the books or just get some practice in or whatever it is, and you just need to do the thing.

And sometimes having that accountability is, is just as valuable as the expert knowledge. Really? Sure. Um, okay. So final question.

So if so, right now there's probably a parent out there watching this who has the child has had a rejection from university or maybe a UCAT score that they weren't hoping for. Um, or maybe they've, you know, not got the A-levels that they need and have got all the way to that and had a rejection there. What would you say to them and what would your advice be? I think if you don't get the UCAT score that you were hoping for, It doesn't necessarily mean that you won't get in. I think it just means we've mentioned it before.

You've got to be a bit more tactical, you've got to be more strategic. So you've got to look at the institutions that perhaps won't weigh or assess your UCAT as strongly. Or if your child's really good at interview, you've got to go where they're going to look more at the interview. So I think, um, if you didn't get the UCAT score, you've got to be tactical. So that's the time to put your sentiment about where you want to go to the side and really think sensibly.

Um, if you didn't get the A-levels or you didn't quite get in, I think you've got to take a step back and realise it's potentially it's definitely not the end of the road. Um, we talked about it before, but there are a number of possibilities and just being prepared for each one of those and having the conversation. Your child may say, I just want to go to university now. I'm ready for it. I want to go into a different course, in which case support them through that and then see what the decision holds.

Or they may say, actually, no, I'm really committed to doing medicine and I want to have another go. So whether it's the reapplication, whether it's the gap year, whether it's the grant. I think just be supportive and be knowledgeable about that would be my advice. Definitely. Is there a universal trait or sentiment that or, you know, a virtue to embody, like a singular thing that you would tell the parent to kind of keep at the forefront of their mind while supporting them through it?

I think that you've got to put your own anxieties away and you've got to be really positive. So your role, if we can say that, is not to coach because you get the experts to do that, but to really support the child, to make them believe they can do it, because ultimately most of them can do it, but they all wobble because it's quite an intense application process. So just to reinforce, actually you can do this actually you're going to do great. Actually. You're going to make a great doctor.

And hearing those messages repeated at home, I think it just puts them in a different position and they feel good about themselves and feel more confident. So that's what I would say. Um, well, Sharon, thank you very much. I'm really grateful for you coming today and chatting to us and sharing your wealth of experience with us, of all of the trials and tribulations that parents come to you with when they are seeking our help and looking to see whether we can support them. And you see all sides of it, really.

So I want to thank you for for all of your expertise and all of your insights from that, but also, you know, publicly just to say thank you so much for all the stuff that you've done with us at Future Doc, uh, run a very tight ship and you have very high standards, and you have really forced us to up our game as well. So, um, I'm really grateful for everything that you've done and for coming today and chatting with us. Great. Thank you very much. It was a great space to have the conversation.

So thank you.